Disclaimer: This is going to sound like a self-pity post. I promise it isn't. I am happy and content. But I'm mulling over some long-time frustrations that are flaring and I want to write and post them. If you're going to read it as a pity post, don't bother reading. Just go to my London blog and wait for the review of the Jack the Ripper tour to go up.There are certain subjects that I hate talking about with certain groups of people. Dating is one of those subjects.
First, it may help to explain that a good 65% of the people here are in relationships, and lots of the rest of them are in between them or having something on deck. Very few (at least from my perspective) seem to understand what it is to have had no prospects for months and no honest-to-goodness action for (true confessions - crap) literally years. Their dating frustrations all have to do with actual dating, not the lack thereof. So I'm understandably out of my element when this kind of thing comes up.
The conversations always start out innocently enough, but inevitably they end up awkward for me, because really, I just don't date that much. The experience I have to look back on - at least the experience that doesn't sound completely bogus to someone else - is extremely limited and old, and I thoroughly hate it when numbers come up because in some groups everyone has dated more than I have. This automatically makes everything I have to say sound simple and naive, which it may be, but what else can I say? (I would like to mention the fact that I do have experience with guys, it just doesn't do well on the numbers scales. You know. Maybe.) And not all of my experience is a result of inability to date either - some of it has to do with timing and attitude, like the way happenings in my church and apartment life left me completely emotionally bereft of all ability to deal with anything more than what was already on my plate during my junior year, or like the way I struggled to really incorporate myself into the Belmont ward until later in the year because I was hating my academic life at the beginning of my senior year, or like the way I periodically just get so sick of things that seem so good and then go nowhere that I just don't even bother caring because that means you don't have to be disappointed when it doesn't happen (result being nothing happens anyway, of course).
I also get frustrated when people start talking about how to play the game - things like, "Get in their window" and "Just be approachable." I really try to do both of these things, but I don't think that the people who say these things understand how my socializing mechanism works. I'm not really an in-your-face kind of person, for starters. I'm very insecure about my relationships to people sometimes (although I don't show it in all circumstances, certainly.) I'm as likely to avoid a guy I like as I am to seek him out, because I don't want to freak him out if he isn't into me. Also, I think that I am a frustratingly unapproachable person about certain things, either because I'm very outspoken about my opinions or because I close off completely without meaning to.
Tonight someone was talking about social cues like touch and turning your body certain ways and all of this trash which is probably completely legitimate, because which feels so contrived to me that I just can't do it. Curse my annoyance with flirtation, I hate things that are fake, and some of the things that seem to be essential for playing the game are just too fake for me to manage. (I think I'm superaware of that insincerity the way that pregnant women are superaware of smells. Although I'm not sure what that makes me in the world of dating women. I'll get back to you.) I hate things like acting needy and being artificially nice. And although everyone says they want good conversation, that rarely turns into a relationship unless you know how to add some of these other elements in. And I really, really don't.
Also, according to several theories that I listened to with interest tonight, I must be either 1) a man or 2) an anomaly among women when it comes to dating, because I don't fit the profiles. The way I work is apparently opposite from everyone else, at least in BYU society. How am I supposed to manage anything when apparently I'm swimming upstream with a determined and unapproachable look on my face while everyone else is swimming down together? (And this doesn't even touch some of the crazy things I use to lose interest in a guy and take away the possibility of rejection. 'Oh, he's a lousy writer. He's out.' What?)
Anyway. I actually enjoy these kinds of conversations, but I don't know whether to be grateful or offended when I'm the only one who doesn't get the "how many people have you kissed?" question, because I don't really want to talk about it . . . but I don't really want it to be that obvious that I'm so different from them. Or at least that I think I am.
Um . . . there is no good way to get off. Sorry.
33 comments:
Wow. We're almost the same person. Except, if it makes you feel any better at all, I've never kissed anybody. And wanna know something really awful? I REALLY DON'T CARE.
I guess we can be anomalies together. Until you get married, of course, at which time I will be on my own again. :P
This comment is being transferred from my blog to yours:
Okay. So when it comes to this topic I'm incredibly snobbish and demanding.
I feel like forever is a long time, and I'm quite serious about marriage being a one-time deal. So I better be damn sure I get what I want. And of course, ideally he'd get the same deal.
If he doesn't like to read and he can't write or talk intelligently, he's out. If he's messy, he's out. If he's a religious zealot, he's out. If he isn't well-informed, goal oriented, and serious about things that matter, he's out. This all sounds very harsh. I'm sure it's thanks to a bunch of really great YW leaders whose advice and Sunday lessons on the matter really sunk in for me.
I'm also sure part of it is due to my personal paranoia about divorce. So goes life.
HOWEVER, I don't think I'm completely impossible to please either. I've met plenty of people that could fit the bill. They're just usually dating someone else. LOL.
Well, if you have dated more than two people, you top my record. I hate being phony too--I think that's why I like Joel so much. He hates artificiality just as much as I do (and probably you). I wish I could say something that didn't sound dumb or patronizing, but all I can come up with that fits the bill is: you rock my world, Megan. I think you're great.
for the record, that was very nicely done; honest and not self-pitying.
secondly, everything about dating sucks, including people who don't think it does. i still hate those conversations because i have so little to show for all the years before mike. it's the most annoying thing in the world when people try and give you tips.
anyway the moral of the story is i feel your pain and i love you.
oh and one more thing. i hope this isn't annoying, but i just want to share a thought that is based on what i experienced with mike. i wouldn't worry too much about those crazy things you use to lose interest in a guy, at least for now. they're your filtering system. when the right guy comes along, a lot of times you'll find that some of those things don't seem so important with him, or that they don't apply in exactly the way you thought they would; and in the meantime, they'll help you get rid of all the duds. they don't deserve you anyway.
:)
I can only imagine that BYU has an extremely unique social atmosphere so I wouldn't worry too much about not fitting in. You might find that somewhere else suits you more. Maybe you could try going to a different place for grad school? :)
First of all, I agree with Miri - not self-pitying at all.
Second of all, "get in their window?" really? games are dumb.
Finally, here's what I am coming to terms with. Who cares? I am who I am and when I try to be something different it never turns out well. Sometimes I'm shy and quiet and painfully anti-social (usually at the worst times) and sometimes I'm loud and obnoxious and sometimes I'm charming and funny. There are plenty of people in my life who have discovered mostly who I am and still love me for it - good, bad, hideously dressed, ugly hair, funny comments and all. Why should we doubt that there is one guy out there who will date us and marry us and love us forever? it happens all the time!
we doubt it because everyone talks about it SO much, because it's such a huge part of mormon culture - i mean it's linked to our eternal salvation! who wouldn't freak out about that? but i think we just have to keep telling ourselves that it's fine. frankly, i'm not proud of the number of people i've kissed, i see it more as a sign of my immaturity and inability to break from the crowd and be my own person. kissing tons of people doesn't make you a dating genius - dating tons of people doesn't make you a dating genius - it just means you've struck out more times and probably got hurt more in the process.
most of all, i don't want to end up with someone who doesn't love me for me because i was trying to stand the right way or say the right things. i also don't want to end up with someone who has terrible spelling...but, like Miri said, I'm pretty sure that stuff becomes less important when you actually do find the guy you love. in the meantime, weeding out the writing-challenged is fine (and necessary)...there obviously is something else that just didn't mesh that manifests itself with claims of "he smells like soup" or "one eye is higher than the other."
Long story short, you are not in the minority. You obviously have friends who are happy to be in the "anomaly" category with you...myself included. :) So go have fun in London and don't ever get in someone's window (unless it's Johnny Cakes, but even then, be careful not to get arrested).
Indeed you are not alone. Before Mark my dating life was a enormous joke. Entirely full of one sided crushes(all on my part). I would sometimes get jealous of all those girls who were always asked on dates and always seemed to be dating someone. But really what is there to envy? Many awkward situations being on dates with boys you'd rather not be on dates with...many heartbreaks. After dating Mark and then breaking up with him I never felt so terrible in my life. To heck if I ever wanted to go through that again. If I didn't marry Mark I probably would have been scarred for life. I probably would never get married for fear of feeling so crummy again. Anyways, I remember exactly how you feel. And once you do find someone who you click with all the rest of that past junk doesn't really matter. With Mark all I had to do was be myself. And amazingly enough he still liked me after all that exposure to my flawed being. Compromising yourself for the sake of boys is never the answer. Be you and that is good enough. Though I understand it may not feel like it. You're great though! Looks like you are having lots of fun in London! Good luck with everything!
Jeremy was my first kiss--and my first boyfriend. Numbers don't matter, and don't stoop to "playing the game" because it's retarded and you're better than that. :) I am so jealous of all the adventures you're having in London!!!
Love,
Janie
Once upon a time:
1) Number games are retarded. Mine: 0...almost every single one lol
2) Why should you be something you're not to attract someone? Your real personality will come out eventually and what then?
3) There has to be a filtering system. Period. Find your absolute no-no's and stick with them. Like your mutual instructors told you: who you date is who you marry :P
There are people in this world who really thrive on playing this game and 'catching' (literally) whomever they want. NO THANK YOU. That's mostly what I have to say about this :)
Cheers!
This is what I have to say and what I have to say is not much...if that made any sense at all:
I agree with pretty much every fiber of my being.
The End.
hmmm. interesting. all i have to say girls is this. captian moroni is not going to come date you so get over it. one of my biggest pet peeves is that girls in provo are all (whether or not they will admit it) waiting for "the one". newsflash for yall...THERE ISNT JUST ONE!!! i know what you are thinking. "Sister so and so in young womens said i should settle for nothing less then "the one" guy that i will be happy with and will be willing to spend the rest of my life with." maybe it is just me but saying there is one would mean that there is pre-destination and last time i checked was not a part of the gospel.
now i am not saying that life is useless and we should all pick up on the next scum bag that moves. on the contrary. every righteous, fun girl deserves a righteous, fun guy. however having lived in provo for a long time i know that there is not a shortage of such girls or guys.
i think that we all need to get over ourselves and decide that we are going to not be so nit-picky about who "the only people i will date" are. i tried it and was plesently surprised.
in conclusion girls give up the incredibly detailed lists of qualities that "my guy" will have and be open minded. i am not incredibly well read or a sports star or a genius but i figure that i am funny, kind guy but if that doesnt fit your bill, your loss.
What I really think is that you need to find a good LDS man outside of Utah. Maybe even one in London! Other than that, you are beautiful, intelligent, funny, and somewhat eccentric. You do need a man who gets you, because otherwise it would be a total waste. And while it's nice to be with someone else, relationships can be full of drama--sometimes it's just more comfortable to be single. So don't let the BYU social pressure make you think you need to get married immediately or date tons of guys. On the flip side, I was reading an article about how women who are too choosy tend to find themselves in their late thirties, still single, and with no viable men left. The moral of that story is don't have standards so high than no real person can live up to them. With love, Greg.
I think "anonymous" totally missed your point. Totally missed the tone of the post and most of the comments.
Greg, however, did not. And he just might be dead on, on both sides. (Not being too picky, but I don't think that's exactly what you were getting at - as far as I could tell, you were talking about the concern that you are one of those girls who is just not super flirty and giggly and forward in your relationships - and that is not necessarily the same thing as being super picky.)
And another thing, why is it that people always say stuff about dating Captain Moroni? 1. He had a son, right? I'm assuming that also means he had a wife. And even if he didn't, Sheri Dew has called dibs a million times anyway.
yeah - anonymous didn't seem to get the point here. did any of us talk about "the one?" oh well. anyway.
i think that i should take a moment and say that i was not responding to the initial blog post by megan. i was commenting to all the outrageous expectations that most girls have for dating and guys that they are waiting to date. before you say "well, thats not true" look up from your computer and ask the nearest single guy what he thinks about the topic.
I think your post wasn't a pity party, it was actually quite insightful to a little of the college girl's psyche, although I also have to agree with some of what "anonymous" had to say, just because I do think that sometimes girls have unrealistic expectations of us (*cough*Cullen!*cough* ha ha...). Sometimes nice guys just have a hard time for some reason. Anyway, interesting indeed, and people are just different. The cookie cutter mold doesn't apply to everyone (in fact, probably not that many people actually fit it), and games are retarded. Things happen as they're meant to.
Hey, what's with the wimpy anonymous post? We're all friends here, and this is an open forum. No need to join the witness protection program just for offering a differing view (although I'm glad you didn't think that I was talking Captain Moroni in my post - let's not miss the point, shall we?) Also, I appreciate everyone's support, but I'm not asking for validation so much as expressing a feeling of displacement in certain social situations. But thanks for loving me anyway.
hi so... wow. the comments on this post have sure taken a different turn since i first commented. megan! people are funny. :)
but can i just say that i think it's pretty silly to say that unrealistic expectations are specific to girls? give me a break, like guys don't have unrealistic (and unfair) expectations of girls. it's not a gender thing, it's a human being thing, and the blame game is so elementary school.
(something to think about--your expectations for other people are usually a reflection of your expectations for yourself, in the same way that things that bother you about other people are very often things that bother you about yourself. which is why there's so much of that mess in the dating game--because in no other life arena are people more insecure and confused.)
and blech. i hate dating references to captain moroni as much as i hate references to nephi. why does the fact that they're from a different time make this okay to people? you wouldn't tell someone to "stop waiting for president monson," would you? well it's the same thing.
Hm. That was a pretty smart comment. And true. I don't know if I've ever actually thought of it (guys having unrealistic expectations) because usually I'm too busy wondering if MY expectations are too high (though after every fight with myself about it, I decide that they aren't). But she's totally right, they often do, and that's probably what makes girls like us feel so weird about dating. Which also means that there must be a group of anomalous guys out there having similar questions. Interesting. :)
And in case you were wondering, I asked a guy at work about the "great expectations" thing, and he made a comment very similar to Miri's last one. So there is at least one guy out there who is perceptive enough to realize that it's a two way street. And honestly, there must be a lot more. They just aren't reading the blog. :)
Whoever knew you would get such a response! Kind of fun...
ill fess up to it. i am the mysterious anonymous... bwahahahaha
I am an anonymous friend of the last anonymous person because he said I should read his post :) To the girl who wont date a guy if he isn't a good writer ... I hope you're willing to give that one up if you find someone who fits other requirements you have. Heck if he reads things for fun at all then that is more than most guys I know. Good luck.
Another anonymous! Do they breed in posts like this? :)
Guess I would be "that" girl. :)
Megan... it's just hopeless. LOL.
Do you know what else part of the problem may be? Having great brothers. I have four of them. All of them read just for fun all the time. All of them speak intelligently. They also do all kinds of other fun stuff like snowboard and dance and play any number of sports and they ride horses and a myriad of other things that aren't necessarily "brainy." All of them are the kind of people I wish there were more of. Even the little ones. And not all of them are stellar writers, but good writing often is the result of enjoying reading. And, since I'm thinking about it, part of the reason I like that particular habit in a guy is that it is SO much easier to get a little boy to love reading when his dad likes to read too. And, incidentally, my dad and both my grandpas are copious readers.
So, to our new anonymous friend, yep. I like guys who read. Just like some guys like girls who are really into action movies and football games (of which there are plenty). That's just me.
This is getting more funny every day Megan. I laugh every time I see a new post. Who knew that this would ever become so interesting to people? I hope London is treating you well. (I'm STILL so jealous...)
I told you (Megan) I wouldn't post... but I want to see if we can make it to Charlotte Bronte.
I am the roommate of the former anonymous, current Todd. I am neither married nor attached. I am unencumbered and therefore an expert in dating. :)
I don't really know what to reply to -- there's so many points being made. In fact, I award 10 points to Lin for the Jet Li movie reference, 15 points to Megan for starting this, and 10 points to Gryffindor.
I am convinced (ignoring "in fact" I have started every sentence thus far very selfishly) that we (the unattached) know the theory of dating. It is the practice that eludes us (or the opportunity... but wait on that point). My advice to anyone stuck in the quagmire of dating (especially Provo dating) is: think less, complain less, do more. The debate is bottomless and potentially suffocating. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone any more than at myself. I find that life goes better when I dig in and do and life gets dull when I stop and complain (no matter how true the complaints)... ...I sound a little preachy, eh? Take it for what it's worth.
Now the parenthetical point about opportunity: as a man, it is easier for me to create dating opportunities than it is for the lady-folk. But just because it's harder, doesn't mean it's impossible. Never use it as an excuse while there is still light in the day.
(This has got to be near Zora at least!)
What I like about you Megan is that you are the girl in all the movies about intelligent girls who perhaps stands out from the other girls... you are Belle :) For the record, there is nothing wrong with playing the game when you aren't playing...I am an incessant flirt, but I think I get it from my mom...most the time I don't realize I'm doing it and 99 percent o the time it is with strange old men ( I work in a retirement community) I find the old saying "opposites attract" is crap...You attract yourself, although you may have different hobbies and interests, your personalitles will reflect one another...so I'm sure whoever you marry will reflect your great qualities and you will have your Jane Austin ending :) (and I know you did NOT say this but I have so many friends who are worried they will not ever get married because they are 22 years old and haven't found someone yet but hey you are married forever and ever and if you haven't found someone by 60 then oh well right)
What I like about you Megan is that you are the girl in all the movies about intelligent girls who perhaps stands out from the other girls... you are Belle :) For the record, there is nothing wrong with playing the game when you aren't playing...I am an incessant flirt, but I think I get it from my mom...most the time I don't realize I'm doing it and 99 percent o the time it is with strange old men ( I work in a retirement community) I find the old saying "opposites attract" is crap...You attract yourself, although you may have different hobbies and interests, your personalitles will reflect one another...so I'm sure whoever you marry will reflect your great qualities and you will have your Jane Austin ending :) (and I know you did NOT say this but I have so many friends who are worried they will not ever get married because they are 22 years old and haven't found someone yet but hey you are married forever and ever and if you haven't found someone by 60 then oh well right)
wow. so many comments i couldn't even remember what I previously posted.
matt - it took me a minute to find my own jet li movie reference (i don't like jet li movies, especially "the one" which i was forced to see by a boy because he promised to watch a chick flick with me later) so maybe my 10 points should be revoked. or put on hold till me next intentional movie reference.
quite the discussion...but dating discussions, I have found, are never lacking.
I wrote a longer comment but i think i might turn it into a blog post so there goes that.
yay for 27 comments! i love these discussions. todd, kudos to you for fessing up. and now i must call you a sillypants for posting anonymously to begin with. sillypants.
matt, i'll take lindsey's 10 points! also i just think i need to point out that for girls the most frustrating thing is that DOING doesn't usually accomplish anything for them. i'm remembering so many late-night conversations with megan right now about that exact thing. i've asked someone out before, and it turned out to be nerve-destroying and humiliating, and i vowed i would never do it again. megan and i were never what you'd call wallflowers, and we did plenty in the way of flirting, expressing interest, and yes, even asking out (although i only tried the once, but i think megan did at least a couple). anyway i totally support your admonition in reference to the male population, but i just don't think it's very applicable to girls. or maybe it is to some, but clearly i am not the type of girl for whom that approach works.
ok. i'm putting a break in the paragraphs to signal the start of a very different section of my comment. here's something i learned from that book i read, megan (remember you can heal your life?). in that book she says that all of our problems in life are rooted in our own lack of love for ourselves, because that lack of self-love attracts negative experiences to us. when we don't feel good about ourselves, other people treat us crappily. when it seems like we can't ever get things going right in our lives, it's because deep down we have a belief that we don't deserve for good things to happen to us. anyway, whether or not it seems like it on the surface, i think most people have this problem to one extent or another. nothing about the world teaches us to love ourselves; i think that's why the gospel puts such an emphasis on us being children of God, but for most of us it doesn't really sink in very well, and it doesn't lead to a practical application of that knowledge. that's what the book i read does-- it teaches you that you can really control everything in your life if you learn to think differently and love yourself. you start by saying "i love and approve of myself," and then you work on reprogramming your brain to think in positive ways, so that you create good experiences for yourself instead of negative ones.
this is probably a lot more dr. phil than we meant to get, but i figured i might as well mention it because i really do think it's the root of all of our problems, and this kind of thinking really works. for the record, you should all check out that book (you can heal your life by louise l. hay) and i think you'll see what i'm talking about.
ok well that's all. i vote we see how long we can keep the comment train going. :D
I have to give Miri mad props for using the word "crappily." Excellent adverb usage. And I like a lot of the ideas in that book. It has definitely given me some things to ponder as I try to be positive about lifes experiences.
...chuggachugga... choo-choo...
Miri,
K, you get the 10 points. Sorry, Lin.
Also, in response to your response, I never said that doing something meant asking people out, or flirting... or anything... I purposely left it ambiguous.
My point was that neither thinking about nor complaining about something will change anything. If we spend time thinking, it should lead to some action -- something tangible -- something we can do to change our circumstance -- anything... just do rather than wallow. I'm not saying that girls need to start asking guys out. I am suggesting that the person who knows their circumstance best can figure out some action to try -- something that fits them. It doesn't even have to be huge. One of mine was: "Make sure you say hi to this person today."
And your description of asking out: "nerve-destroying and humiliating" is pretty accurate. Glad you got a taste :) (I think you should try asking Mike out... I think it would be much less nerve-destroying)
And a shielding disclaimer: I have spent my fair share of time complaining without action (I still do), but I do know that I feel worse after complaining and better after trying something out.
And Megan, can you please add more quoted portraits... we've run out.
:)
Miri - I am happy to have given up my 10 points for you if only because you posted a comment longer than mine were. I'm always so wordy - so much so that I actually deleted the majority of that last comment of mine and opted for my own post.
I also love how much you love that book. Maybe I shall read it just to see what all the hub-bub is about. Is that how you spell hub-bub? hubbub just looks silly.
Matt - you should comment more on things. It makes me laugh.
And as a person who has been the instigator of a relationship I can say with 100% assurety that it really does suck. I feel for you men, I really do. It's all nervousness and butterflies and word vomit (at least for me) and that awkward moment where they could say no or any number of awkward moments really. Goodness. No fun at all. But at least I can empathize? I guess that's a good thing I could take from that.
and, Megan, 32 comments! woohoo! if only I knew posting my thoughts on dating would get so many responses, I would have used that tactic in last weeks interactive blog experiment. Now I know.
And knowing is half the battle (Go Joe!)
Haha I'm still commenting mostly because I love that Megan's gotten over 30 comments on this. I think it may be a record; didn't we even beat Drew's BYU honor code post?
Matt: I absolutely agree with Lindsey. I almost always read your comments aloud to Mike because they're so funny. Also thank you for the points. What can I use them on?
Lindsey: Thanks for relinquishing them gracefully. :P It's just a really interesting book, and I won't lie, it can feel pretty empowering at times. You start to realize that you have a lot more control over things than you ever thought, and that is a really nice feeling. The problem is just getting yourself to the point where all of that works for you.
Megan I'm glad we had a talk today! It has made me happy. I never liked talking about dating woes with anyone as much as you.
Post a Comment